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ali_asadzadeh
Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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on: August 05, 2023, 03:23:43 pm »
Hi,
I have decided to modify and build lumenpnp, do you know any chinese Nozzle manufacturers or brand?
lumenpnp and neoden use standard nozzles from samsung, like CN030,CN040,CN065,CN100,CN140,CN220,CN400,CN750 ,first of all I want to know where I can get datasheet (PDF drawing) or CAD file or 3D step model of these nozzles? Searching the web did not revel relevant info.
Also where Can I get the nozzle holder for the hollow-shaft stepper motors so I can attach nozzles to them, my plan is to go with Nema 8 stepper motors, so I can have 6 to 8 nozzles in a single machine head, I have managed to find small motor manufacturers in china for the electric feeders, Now is the time to fine a suitable low cost Nozzle set that can carry 0402 to 35mmx35mm 1152 BGA package.
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Doctorandus_P
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #1 on: August 05, 2023, 08:44:16 pm »
I don't know about the Samsung nozzles, but Juki is apparently also popular.
Quite some time ago I found a drawing of Juki nozzles on the 'web and I found it interesting enough to save the drawing.
I have never seen one in real life though, and as far as I know the measurements are reverse-engine-nerded.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2023, 10:20:21 am by Doctorandus_P »
ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #2 on: August 06, 2023, 08:21:47 am »
Thanks Doctorandus_P for sharing, it would be nice that others that have PNP machines participate, so we can find the best cheapest Nozzle set or manufacturer or a distrbuter, I wish we could find something like JLCPCB, good quality and low prices. Also It's unseal that I can not find 3d model of nozzles in 3dcontentcentral or similar sites.
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Doctorandus_P
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #3 on: August 06, 2023, 10:15:31 am »
I would not care too much about "low price".
You only need a few of them, so price is not that important.
Quality seems much more important, If your nozzles don't work well, such as getting stuck during a toolchange, leaking seals or whatever, then your PnP machine becomes unreliable, and this sucks up many hours of your time in baby sitting, diagnosing and fixing.
The Juki nozzles also have a spring in them, which gives them compliance in the Z-axis, so adjustment is not critical.
Juki nozzles cost about EUR10 (or clones?) on Ali and you can get the Female adapter complete with stepper motor and rotating joint for the vacuum hose for below EUR100. (But you also want the Z-axis motion, and likely a "dual head")
I can understand the fun in DIY but Z-axis for PnP machines are so affordable that it would be madness to DIY this part.
I've seen too many youtube video's about experiments with servo's for the z axis which wear out in a few weeks, then get replaced with a higher quality servo that costs about the same as a complete Z-axis.
You can also find the Samsung nozzles, adapters and Z-axis on Ali, but Juki seems to be more popular. Prices are about the same.
Oops:
I thought it was "Yuki", but it's "Juki". I'll also correct that in my first post.
----------------
And about the feeders...
There I see an opportunity for a good DIY design.
It's a subject that also pops up in my head every now and then.
What I don't like about the professional versions:
* Extremely big.
* Quite expensive (and you want a lot of them).
* Do not work with cut tape. Need long leader tapes etc.
My perfect feeder:
* Fits into volume of about a 100x120x20mm.
* Can hold about a meter of cut tape. (Bigger magazine with longer tape option)
* Does not need leader tape.
* Dispenses the first part of the tape without waste.
* Feeds upto and including the last part.
* Integrated identification (Either electronic as Lumen PnP does, or with a barcode and inspection camera on the PnP head.
* Idea is: You just put in the feeders, press a button, and it's ready.
* Integrated counting.
* Needs a LED (blink when it's nearly empty or something).
* Integrates with PC for parts management. You get a warning beforehand if there are not enough parts for a whole PCB
I think the way to achieve this is to cut the cover tape of the tape along the center, and then fold the flaps outwards. You probably need a (rubber?) roller (or two L+R) to keep the glue from releasing the cover tape (which it is unfortunately designed to do). The advantages of this method are that you do not need cover tape at all, and you do not need a mechanism to pull of the cover tape.
I have also seen a lot of cheap hobby servo's used in DIY feeders, but I do not have much trust in those, and they are also still too big. There are lots of small geared stepper motors with a screw on Ali (See attachments) and I think these can be very suited.
Commercial feeders often use a big wheel with pins to pull the tape, but that does not fit in my form factor, because you can't fold the flaps of the cover tape outward when the tape is bent. That leaves either such a linear stepper motor, or a rotary thing with an excenter and a push rod.
Another idea is to put the feeders in "reversed" from the normal direction.
This is doable if the feeders are only 10cm long (the PCB can possibly even be above the feeders). This has two advantages. First the part where the tape is dispensed is better accessible for troubleshooting, and second, the used empty tape just gets spit out of the front (or side) of the machine. Whenever you want to change a feeder, you just cut that part off with scissors before you take the feeder out. This way there are no extra forces on the tape which can upset the mechanism.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2023, 11:05:38 am by Doctorandus_P »
ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #4 on: August 07, 2023, 09:43:48 am »
thanks for the feedback, I have found this website https://dobeter.com/ for smt nozzles, and emailed them, But has no response yet , Maybe other forum members in china or others that buy nozzles there have connections or recommend websites.
For the motors, for the feeder I think the small N20,N30 or N50 motors are very convenient for the job, I'm searching manufacturers for them too, and am discussing the spec and prices with them.
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
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ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #5 on: August 07, 2023, 09:46:01 am »
What do you suggest for cameras? I'm thinking of using cheap xiaomi cell phone for the cambers, since they usually comes in 4K and are very cheap, But I do not know if or how I can connect them to open pnp.
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
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ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #6 on: August 08, 2023, 07:21:44 am »
3D printed nozzels!!?
Are there any good?
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
Doctorandus_P
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #7 on: August 08, 2023, 09:58:24 am »
I just had a sort peek (again) at Stephen Hawes / Lumen PnP and I think it also use N20 motors. They seem quite reasonable, but they do have enough thickness that they are the limit for feeder width, and thus the number of feeders that fit on your machine. The stepper motors I looked at are thinner then the tape, so the tape itself is the limiting factor.
Another type of motor you can consider are the large diameter "pancake" stepper motors.
Advantages of stepper motors are their simplicity and reliability.
There are no brushes to wear out. So the main consideration is mechanical wear of bearings and gears (how robust is a 5mm diameter steppermotor with planetary gears? Stepper motors also do not need feedback, no end switches or encoders needed. If you have "disk with pins" to feed the tape, you can calculate the number of steps needed to advance the tape easily. With a linear stepper, you can run it backwards upon startup and just let it hit a mechanical stop, and after that you can feed it with pre calculated step numbers. Drivers for stepper motors are also very easy, as these days it's just a 50ct IC that does everything. Just add a uC and you're done.
Also note that his feeders are now available for USD95. If you fully equip your machine with 50 feeders, you may get a discount, but it's probably still USD4000 just for the feeders. And that is over double the price of whole Lumen PnP machine itself, which is listed for USD2000.
Also, a quick look at Ali / Ebay shows you can get Yamaha pneumatic feeders for USD80. Cheaper, narrower, and like more reliable than many DIY solutions.
On top of that. Especially for quick prototyping, your ideal amount of feeders is not determined by the products you make or what fits on your machine, but by the number of different parts you have. Ideally you never have to take filled tape out of your feeder to replace it with other parts, but just store the feeder with the parts in them so they are ready for use.
Most PnP machines are optimized for production, and then swapping parts in a feeder is already a quite time consuming task. For a PnP machine optimized for quick prototyping it is even much more important, as the setup time will always already be much longer then the production time. And that is the main reason I want my "perfect" feeders to be so small. The goal is to store many of them (so they have to be cheap too). What Hawes does with the magazine on the back side and the mechanism on the front side of the "mounting bar" is simply not acceptable for the type of PnP machine I am interested in.
3D printed nozzels!!?
Are there any good?
Again, Nozzles and head are not things to skimp upon. It'd just not worth it considering their price.
I do like the lego build plate Idea (I use it myself too) but not in that form factor. If you put such high things on it, they wobble and topple over too easily, which makes the machine unreliable. And an unreliable PnP is not a "machine" but a nightmare.
Reliability / dependability of a PnP machine is extremely important, and that is why all those DIY machines are already in a very niche market segment. If you're just interested in production, but have a tight budget, buying a second hand industrial machine is very likely a much better option. Making a DIY machine even a bit less reliable by skimping on parts that are not expensive in the first place is simply not even worth considering.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2023, 11:19:21 am by Doctorandus_P »
jmelson
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #8 on: August 08, 2023, 02:48:25 pm »
I had a Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha) and niow have a Quad QSA30A (made by Samsung). Both used steel nozzles that were very robust. Some other makes use plastic or ceramic nozzles, that may be prone to wear or fragile.
Jon
ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #9 on: August 09, 2023, 04:17:07 pm »
Quote
Again, Nozzles and head are not things to skimp upon. It'd just not worth it considering their price.
I agree with you, I just came across a youtube voideo and wnated to share, So where do you suggest to buy nozzels?
Quote
I had a Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha) and niow have a Quad QSA30A (made by Samsung). Both used steel nozzles that were very robust. Some other makes use plastic or ceramic nozzles, that may be prone to wear or fragile.
Jon
Thanks for sharing jon, where do you suggest to buy nozzels?
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
Doctorandus_P
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #10 on: August 10, 2023, 06:25:49 pm »
I'd just get both the nozzles and the whole Z-axis head from some Aliexpress store. Some prefer ebay or that store that first forces their drivers to pie in bottles, and then fires them. I don't like the attitude of the Chinese government, but I don't want to add things like that on top of it.
ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #11 on: August 12, 2023, 08:13:28 am »
Doctorandus_P thanks for sharing, would you please share the Aliexpress store?
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
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ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #12 on: August 12, 2023, 01:15:06 pm »
I wonder what's the highest speed machine has any one build using open pnp?
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
Doctorandus_P
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #13 on: August 12, 2023, 01:37:08 pm »
Doctorandus_P thanks for sharing, would you please share the Aliexpress store?
Just
pick a store
and place their product in your ordering basket.
I wonder what's the highest speed machine has any one build using open pnp?
The one below made by m3rkwurdigliebe would be a good candidate, and certainly be good enough for most DIY folks.
Pinkus
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #14 on: August 12, 2023, 03:27:37 pm »
Looks impressive but I doubt this speed can be used in reality. With this acceleration the parts on the nozzle will definitely move and not been placed reliably. No wonder he is just moving around and not really placing parts in the video.
Edit: At this video from him, everything is way slower (but still quick):
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 03:29:44 pm by Pinkus »
ali_asadzadeh
Re: Pick and place Nozzle manufacturers
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Reply #15 on: August 13, 2023, 02:39:21 pm »
I wonder how many components would it mount in an hour?
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits